all of those north korean scamps are at it again another nuclear test in north korea has made all the headlines trust me nuclear missiles are something worth being concerned over but haven't we heard this song and dance before all the way back in two thousand and two the north koreans according to the b.b.c. ruled that they have a secret weapons program and turned their young beyond nuclear reactor back on since then every once in a while a missile flies and people see the war is coming and silence then another test of some sort shock horror and then silence again with great just uses this is a bargaining tool to get what they want or how wacky the north korean state may seem they understand that launching one or two missiles against united states means they probably won't even hit their target and in return their entire country will turn into ash instantly this situation really isn't cause for concern until something big changes like the us not being in a position to support south korea japan or some other dramatic event that changes the game like china giving up their support for the north korean side but for now the cycle just keep going on and on and about two years the same headlines will be back with the same fear will be back lather rinse repeat but that's just my opinion

. hello and welcome to cross talk or all things are considered i'm peter lavelle a church in crisis or only transition the retirement of pope benedict sees catholics all over the world discussing the state of the church and its future direction is the catholic church a spent force can recover from over decades of scandal and internal divisions and how will history remember the pontificate of benedict. to cross-talk the church in crisis i'm joined by jamila bey in washington she is

a journalist and the host of the radio show sex politics and religion our in berkeley we have nancy shepherd hughes she is a professor of medical anthropology at the university of california berkeley and in new york we cross to terence kealey he is a professor of catholic theology and chair of the department of theology at for him university all right crosstalk rules in effect both of you can jump in anytime you want man so you got up early as for the program so i'm going to go to you first what do you think the state of the catholic church is with the exit of benedict. well i actually think it's a moment of possible optimism. i have been extremely distressed with the. last papacy and feel that we need now to really rethink the church i don't think the church is irrelevant it has a billion members and so unless those billion members are relevant you know the church can't be but i think it's

a church that has to change. it has to become truly ecumenical it cannot assume a theological supremacy over the rest of the world's great and little religious traditions it has to be truly catholic that is universal it has to be open to dialogue to critique to debate as we're having now it has to be a church of love and compassion and empathy i think what we need is a pope from the south because catholicism has moved rapidly south it's become more and more distanced from the the north and the secularization of the north and i am a former catholic but i still have a very strange franciscan version of kind of. a creationism that admits and loves evolution and so forth but i think we need a southern pope i would like us to have

a barefoot pope i'd like the church to give up all of its pop pomp and circumstance and look. around to the world you know but nancy what i mean they've been saying that about the church for a very long time no haven't. they have they have. well there was john the twenty third and there was a vatican council and unfortunately the church turned its back on that very very important moment in the history of catholicism and you know i i would like to say i'm optimistic if they the people whose names have been put up are not. potentially the ones that i would like to see i'd like to see a leonardo off i'd like to see one of the hereto well you might you know you might see one chariot go ahead gary go ahead and jump in there i mean i disagree with what nancy had to say do you. well i agree with much of what she has

to say because it's obviously true and i can't subscribe to the kind of romantic notion she has of what she'd like the church to be but i also want to suggest that the church is a multi institutional institution that is to talk about the church as if it's just the hierarchy in the bishops is to forget that like politics all religion is local tip o'neill got it right about politics but he was right about religion too so locally of the church may be a bit better off than peers to be nationally and internationally to would like to see a pope from the south but i think what they will elect is somebody who contrasts to benedict in the sense that somebody who is a good administrator and can work and cleaning up of the problems that are revealed by vahey leaks and all the other nonsense that's been coming out of rome not to mention of course the mostly regional and local problems with the abuse scandals

jamila in washington would you react to everything we've heard so far. you know i delighted to be on this panel because i think i fall evenly split between all that we've heard here's the thing the church is made up of it's people and while on the one hand terry is absolutely right it's not merely the hierarchy the truth as you know as. tear it to forgive me. the person from berkeley nancy i'm so sorry to have forgot your name but nancy is right to this structural issues of the catholic church are the issues that a lot of its former members objected to the fact that you don't have women and positions of power the fact that you don't have the local ability to say well you know we don't want to take such a hard line on let's say homosexuality. those are changes that are structural indeed but the hierarchy would have to sign off on

a number of us lapsed catholics now atheist and now somewhere on the continuum just can't get over that until it is a church of the people that the people who are truly able to come together and worship as they see fit and you know frankly stop stop the hierarchy from in the us what the cop with a conference of bishops telling people how to vote telling people that having health care for all is a bad thing because some women might get contraceptives a lot of us disagree with that hard line that comes from the hierarchy the people don't have a mechanism with which they can rise up and take control of their church and and roll and worship as they see fit ok but nancy can the catholic church remain universal. let me go to nancy here because all these things are good and fine most people would agree with them but then it wouldn't be the catholic church anymore. oh what's the catholic church i mean it's it's a very very old institution that has had many different i'm not

a church scholar star in but the church in brazil is not the church in ireland is not the church in china is not that you know in the philippines i mean it's a church of pluralism and diversity and that has not been now we're living in a global truly global world and so that has to be. you know dealt with so we need a pope who speaks to golly go speak zulu who speaks portuguese as well as spanish you know i think that there it's the only way the only way the church can survive really i do believe is through there has to be a revolution otherwise. what's happening is that people are just simply breaking off and not paying attention in a pope has you know has followers yes you could see them you know cheering in st peter's square or whatever but the pope's did great damage in the past you know when j.p.

to who was beloved in parts of latin america you know. but when he came and closed down the seminaries that were teaching liberation theology and orientation to. a theology of everyday life of the ology they could deal with human suffering at the ology that would be open to women and to embracing the body finding a way to love god without hating the created body without hating sexuality i think that's been you know the largest problem of having thank you a hierarchy that is closed ok kerry would you react to that point that has always been well that's going to carry let's have a better time mostly equal time yes go ahead terry. there's i mean there's so much to react to. i don't agree with john paul the second theology of the body but at least he's paying attention to the body a liberation theology is taught in many parts of the world the churches diverse it

the local parishes do reach out my own parish has a a group of bt people that support strongly their mentioned in the in the bulletin every weekend but the lighting candles and supporting the hour is i think you would have to support that doesn't. so what you are the church we're the generation of resupport in our local pastors do that makes the difference now i have to say one of the things that. eliminate data from our d. conversion project is showing is that people are put off by the bishops i think that's entirely correct but they don't leave the church unless they start withdrawing from the local church as well and it's the local church that holds people in if a local church goes bad people tend to leave that's preliminary data but that's what our view conversion project study is showing so i think you know much of what you're saying is correct but you also have to look for other places of power in the

church besides the hierarchy and there are places of power that threaten in the in the thirty's to withdraw their sisters from the catholic schools of the bishop didn't kowtow and guess what bishops i mean when was your dad go ahead and jump in the head. of the the nuns or are such an important effect of part of catholicism in the structure of the catholic church as it seemed around the world however has lost its mission of making sure that those nuns are educating children that those nuns are out in the communities and being part of the communities i think that you know peter thank you for making the point that although terry's particular congregation is very open to l. g.b.t. folks that is not the vatican line and when you look at the when you look at simply from the public health perspective what does it do when the pope says that only in certain circumstances is condom use ok when there's still a doctrine that says that contraceptive is wrong contraceptive usage even within

a marriage is absolutely mortal sin even in this over overpopulated planet even in the days we live in now where science teaches us that not every woman should have every baby the. her that her husband and her can create together. it's just it's it's taking women and it's taking the heart of the church because frankly women are the heart of the church we have the babies we bring them up in the tradition and it's saying you will be subject that doesn't fly any longer i'm sorry fifty percent of the girl in the meantime but here are your rights leaders the world has let me jump in here nancy was agreeing on nancy have a word before we go to the break nancy go ahead well i think that you know it's wonderful that terri you know has i agree you know with genuine has a wonderful parish that's lively i see parishes that are just spirited and crushed

by the sex abuse scandals that have. you have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the catholic church state with our. new year's celebrations on the move without the traditional t.v. all festive food surprising meetings and new adventures stories of love found and love lost all russians teach foreigners to celebrate them biggest holiday of the year from moscow st petersburg by train you. may be miracles.

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turned the lights. so. welcome back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're talking about a church in crisis. ok terry i'd like to go back to you can account the church recover from the pedophilia scandals i mean the church itself is the sinner ok and it has sinned against its own congregation and horribly so how does he get out of this one it's going to take

. nothing but time this is a terrible scandal and the abuse of authority is just appalling and as i don't know if it was lance nancy or leave me alone who said that the there were you know very sad and oppressed parishes in her area and especially in ireland yes i think that's entirely true and i think it is just going to take a long time and some true vigilance to get over this the one thing i'd like to add in contra comment on what was said earlier is that ninety percent of us catholics and i suspect this is true in other countries to reject the catholic church's hierarchy's teaching on contraception a majority of catholics don't you don't think homo sexual relief will there terry then why hasn't the church shaves why you know i think church change and react to what's flock why not the church the church has changed the hierarchy is stuck in the past if you abscess on the hierarchy you will think the

church is in real trouble if you look at the nuns you look at the people you look at the parishes you will see a much more mixed picture and that's where the church is religion is local it's not tear out i've been here i don't want to see how it was the hierarchy that covered up the sex scandal for years like it backs the problem too isn't it and it certainly is and they have the power has are good no pay i asked nancy jump in this is cross talk go ahead well you know i'm just saying that you know with all due respect the council of bishops has been very firm and the hierarchy about these catholic nuns who are taking. exactly the positions you're saying they should be taking and that i agree that they should be taking but it matters you seem to say that the guy who wrote it is a relative you know but some people would say. go ahead jump ahead some people say

that the only thing that that creates a catholic church is the fact that we have a pope that we have these bishops and cardinals who get get behind closed doors and with a little puff of smoke they tell us really why duty is to be. a true faith very catholic and so when terry is saying forget it it does you no matter this is people who are poor who are educated it makes a difference it means whether or not they can get an abortion it it's tremendously important to enlighten america what that pope says because it please i mean i want to i want to terry to respond and then we're going to launch intranet here no no let's go to kerry because he's the he's on leno go ahead terry go ahead. i don't i i don't want to disagree but i do think again we are obsessing with the hierarchy and to be a catholic is to be in communion with those who are in communion with the bishop of

rome you're a catholic until you you quit and we even if you disagree with the church i also point out with regard to the investigation of the leadership conference of women religious the major investigators have been changed in rome and the tone is changing the the sisters who resisted have gotten it made clear that there is a resistance to this over arching patriarchy patriarchy isn't demick in world religions and you know i think that we have to fight this but i don't know exactly when this is going to be overcome it's a long fight and sometimes the best thing to do is just to say hell no i won't go to withdraw your money to withdraw your support and to withdraw your time and put it somewhere else i mean that's what's been happening but it's also the case that a lot i mean little are working on it washington jump in it is it is it is precisely what people are doing they're pulling their kids from catholic schools

they're not. going to catholic hospitals and i want to talk for a moment about catholic hospitals because these here in the u.s. are institutions that are there to serve the public and recently with the politicization of politicisation forgive me of you know women's health and the catholic conference of catholic bishops who made it so that. particular hospital in arizona was stripped of its catholic affiliation women who are in distress who are not going to survive pregnancies if they go to catholic hospitals are under a doctrine that pretty much says let her die that's that's coming from the hierarchy but it's played out locally that is a position that is untenable and it's unconscionable the catholic church has every right to hold whatever it does but the fact of the matter is that for a lot of people there are some unpardonable sins covering up the rape and the

brutalization of children making it so that a woman who goes into a medical institution is beholden to the specific religious tenets of the doctors who would treat her the nurses who would treat her is unconscionable no one would go to a hospital where jehovah's witness doctor says well we can't transfuse blood but but women are expected to just say ok well my tax money should go to support hospital which will not give me the full range of reproductive care that's wrong and the catholic church is behind that they will too much political power here in the u.s. and around the world as well but as a as a woman who is of child bearing years here in the u.s. i've got a big problem with that and that's not something that the catholic church is addressing adequately and a lot of women my age and who are you know who love a woman who could bear a child right now are really second guessing their affiliation with catholic institutions because of that position as well nancy and so you nodding your head

you want to jump in there. well i just completely agree with everything that joe miller has said and i i don't understand what terry is saying because he's saying just ignore what the hierarchy is doing ignore the politicization of hospital care and of medical care and now we're going into a new obamacare program it's a very decisive moment in the world and the catholic church has to bow out of that it has to allow women to get the care they need you know liberation theology was about a preferential option for the poor the sick and the miserable of the world and in fact the church has taken moves i call a preferential option for death around condoms around contraception around necessary abortions that's a preferential option that is given directly against women and their bodies and it expresses a hatred for the body and that's what has made me leave the church that i was

brought up in and i loved and i love the sacraments i think they're beautiful i think that they give anesthetic and a reflexive city about the created world but it is so at odds with the politicization of the of the of the body of people of gay people and queer people and women i cannot bear it anymore and i suffer a loss to my spirituality that i have not been able to fill. because i had the the fate of being thrown into the world as a baptized catholic so it is like my race in a sense and i have to i have had to be d. d. ratified in the fact that i don't have the i guess i could walk into an episcopal church my daughter is an episcopal priest she's an episcopal priest because of being exposed to liberation theology the years that we lived in brazil and then in

south africa when she saw her. the archbishop tutu and she saw how this couple priests were married and had families and had rich lives who understood the suffering of poor people of women so. i don't know is terry comfortable with saying that catholics and women and gay people of conscience should simply join another another tradition that's similar but is not the one that you feel ok and you add it you as jerry a question you asked harry a question let him answer. in one sense i want to make some distinctions here first i don't want to ignore the bishops i want to occasionally to fight them occasionally to agree with them but i don't i think ignoring them is a problem no not at all people don't ignore them they stay in spite of them and i think that's a major problem if one can no longer worship in the catholic church if one can no longer feed the hungry give drink to the thursday close the close the naked in the

catholic church if one can no longer receive the sacraments there then one she has to go somewhere else that's exactly correct is that a good thing i think it's a very sad thing and if it's a result of a personal commitment what can i say that's what people do if it's the result of hatred of the hierarchy i'm not quite so sure that's a good thing yes there are things that are hateable in the hierarchy they have done some horrible things they've also done some good things and i don't think it's quite clear proper to characterize catholic hospitals as not providing full ranges of health care in an emergency i think that that's we have to design for an ordinary health care and i agree but. let's go to washington go ahead you day i'm so sure about that go to washington you are wrong if i present myself if i am in sepsis. let's look at the world looked at ireland when it went what

a dentist her husband brought her and she was she was the child inside her was probably not viable but she had started contracting they would not take that pregnancy which was going to kill the mother because she the woman had started contracting sepsis ted and the woman died of an infection anywhere else in the world they would have saved her it's not a hard thing to do you perform the abortion you save the woman the same thing happened in the state of arizona if i were to present to a hospital here in the u.s. let's say georgetown university. a and b. c. i would get my husband and say you take me across town to a non catholic hospital i don't want to lose you and leave our child you know motherless that's what women are up against to say that they're offering a full range of medical care my friend is disingenuous at best i don't mean to make you my enemy i said i don't think that's correct you know i really want to carry get the last word real quick kerry go ahead. i really want to suggest that the

could be the issue in arizona was not an abortion it was something else and the thing that happened in ireland that should be repudiated that was tragic and i don't think that follows catholic teaching at all it follows obsession all right after folks fascinating discussion but we have run out of time many thanks today to my guests in new york washington and in berkeley and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk rules. you believe he will. choose your language. actually we can we know in many cases some.

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